tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post112072325008845030..comments2023-10-20T09:43:39.318-04:00Comments on Frumpter: Going Down A Dark PathZoe Strickmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07940789852735669214noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120832243948882652005-07-08T10:17:00.000-04:002005-07-08T10:17:00.000-04:00Zoe: "The point is that I would still be authent...Zoe: <I> "The point is that I would still be authentic if I knew I was sinning. I wouldn't be living a life of truth if I did engage in these activities I am discussing; however, I wouldn't lie to myself and say they are okay or permitted if I engaged in these activities. "</I><BR/><BR/>This is exactly what I was hoping to convey. :o)Rowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446435491941733971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120784971824845372005-07-07T21:09:00.000-04:002005-07-07T21:09:00.000-04:00You accept what you hear from other people too muc...You accept what you hear from other people too much. If you don't wish to go to the opera and shake a woman's hands, fine. However, know that many rabbis think it fine to shake a woman's hand if she extends hers first since the touching is not <I>derech chiba</I> and she will be embarassed if you leave her hand hanging. Also, room can be found to go to the opera since you can't really see the women clearly and since according to some, the problem is not thinking a bad thought but committing a bad deed, which is nearly impossible to do with a stage star. (The permission for handshaking is, I belive, on much firmer ground.)<BR/><BR/>Don't just trust whatever people tell you. Read a bit too.<BR/><BR/>(Somewhat connected is you learning Rambam, Tanya, etc. every day. While doing so is very admirable and, I'm sure, meaningful, I hope you are aware that learning that much every day is not a requirement. Meaning, if you feel overwhelmed, scale back a little bit.)<BR/><BR/>Anyways, good luck in whatever you do. I understand your desires and you rightly said that even if you give in and start dancing, you'll know that you're doing wrong, which is the main thing I guess, keeping focus. Just from my own (albeit, limited and different) experiences, though, I don't think doing wrong will bring you greater happiness.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry again for rambling and good luck.<BR/><BR/>JMO (I was anonymous my last comment. I'm sorry for forgetting to sign my name.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120781775524892022005-07-07T20:16:00.000-04:002005-07-07T20:16:00.000-04:00Your spooky arguement smells strongly of the dark ...Your spooky arguement smells strongly of the dark side...<BR/>1st, you are leaving out an important component: her. She's gotta get married too, you know. <BR/>2nd, you really think G-d is out to ruin your life (yes, marriage/family is the most "life" we're ever gonna get) because you are lax and doubtful? Would your father stop feeding you because you gambled (por exemplar)? There certainly are better arguements to your desperate statement, but, ehhh... I don't know them. What I do know is that ""v'atzar es hashamayim v'lo y'hi'yeh matar" cannot possibly apply to your life. Enough with the doom-saying! <BR/>Tachlis. Perhaps things would be easier for you if you were in a Jewish community with a minyan, shiur and...Americans??? (ok ok, I really don't idealize my country folk- just can't be that many Jews in China...)<BR/>Whatever. It's a shame that our brightest and most talented (yes that is a compliment) are so drawn to the 'other side'... See? Starwars is realistic! (If I hear "ew! sci-fi!" again...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120775830773155592005-07-07T18:37:00.000-04:002005-07-07T18:37:00.000-04:00Johnny CL, repeating your point as I understood it...Johnny CL, repeating your point as I understood it, 1) don't throw out the system because of a few bad dates, because the right one will come along because G-d himself is working on it on my behalf, and 2), if G-d is so powerful that he created the world (and that he recreates it at every moment), then he'll be able to arrange a shidduch for me.<BR/><BR/>Would it spook you if I told you that in my heart I fear that due to my recent doubting these past few months and due to my intermittant lapses in daily obligations, I fear that I no longer merit G-d's attention in getting a good shidduch? I've been feeling a bit alone lately and adhering to my daily prayer and study has been lacking. Between you and me, that is probably the source of my disconnection which has filtered and spread into other parts of my life. I will remedy this today.Zoe Strickmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940789852735669214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120772607622148882005-07-07T17:43:00.000-04:002005-07-07T17:43:00.000-04:00Zoe! Great blog! Linked here from...wow far away i...Zoe! Great blog! Linked here from...wow far away in some other Blogland (is there even a concept of distance in cyberspace?)... First of all, you should know that you are not alone in this mess. I don't think it's constructive though to blame your negative (?) shidduch life on "the system". I like to compare it to theories on creation (one day=a million days, each day=another stage of evolution etc etc etc). The whole concept of creation is so completely impossible and enormous, that any way you explain it-no matter how logical- it still makes absolutely no sense to me. Same thing with marriage. Connect the dots. There's millions of Jewish girls- which is your match? My whole point in this prolonged ramble is that if G-d manages to create the world, He'll manage in getting you the right girl. Maybe repeat that as a mantra every morning. (yoga position optional.) Doesn't is say in the Midrash that G-d uses his "spare time" to make shidduchim? (and that it's more difficult then creation itself? ohh... sorry to mention that...:-] ) <BR/>Anyways, I'm somewhat in the same boat (though I was raised frum, chabad)- we're all making an effort together, so please, for our sake- stay strong amigo! (and China? fun! Watch "Hero".)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120763896061412432005-07-07T15:18:00.000-04:002005-07-07T15:18:00.000-04:00Wow, two VERY GOOD and thoughtful comments. Rowan...Wow, two VERY GOOD and thoughtful comments. Rowan and Anonymous, I thank you both because I agree in parts with each of what you both have said. I will try to respond to both of you within the same response without cheapening the value of your individual contributions.<BR/><BR/>As for the fear of me seeing you as hypocritical, keep in mind that I am not judging you; rather, I am appreciating and reading your writings as advice to help deal me with the situation at hand. <BR/><BR/>As for the religious input, I feel that what both of you have said would or could have been said -WORD-FOR-WORD- by my mouth at different times of my life. While I think that Anonymous, you are correct objectively and in truth, namely that if there was a G-dly revelation at Mount Sinai, then we have an OBLIGATION to be a certain way, and that's it -- no if's, and's, or butts. Literally.<BR/><BR/>Emotionally, Rowan, I am feeling more inclined towards your opinion. Of course you're right in setting limits, and maybe holding off from any intimacy including abstinance from any intimate contact -- the path I've taken so far -- is the correct and moral path.<BR/><BR/>However, perhaps I should be looking into other sources for shidduchim because I am not finding what I am looking for in the Lubavich community I am associated with. I would also stretch this point and consder actual dating from a site like frumster.com or jdate.com (frumster uses an intermediary shidduch system), however, I feel that even this might be secularizing too much which would lead me down a road I don't want to go. After all, truth is truth, and if religion is true, then while it is not logically fulfilling, I can only hope there would be some sense of reward built into the system since there is definitely divine punishment build in. <BR/><BR/>Anonymous, as for your comment, maybe you are right that in my discussions and temptations to deviate, I would be going too far by touching. But then how would two people ballroom dance? Perhaps there is room for touching socially and reserving ALL intimate contact, including hugs and kisses exclusively for my wife when I meet her. This is the middle road which emotionally sounds most attractive and logical. SAYING THIS, I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT IT WOULD BE AGAINST HALACHA AND THAT I WOULD BE A NASTY SINNER if I engaged in this non-intimate social contact I am discussing. <BR/><BR/>By no means would I deny that I would be a sinner if I broke away from the strict observances I have learned to follow. Any kind of touch, whether handshake, dance, or otherwise would be against halacha, as would visiting an opera because of kol isha (not being allowed to hear the voice of a woman). I would clearly be sinning and I would know that on some level I will be suffering because of my decision. Again, I have made no decisions on this matter and still am frum; I am just asking questions. The point is that I would still be authentic if I knew I was sinning. I wouldn't be living a life of truth if I did engage in these activities I am discussing; however, I wouldn't lie to myself and say they are okay or permitted if I engaged in these activities.Zoe Strickmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940789852735669214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120754709919910362005-07-07T12:45:00.000-04:002005-07-07T12:45:00.000-04:00First, religion is not a joke. Either G-d laid do...First, religion is not a joke. Either G-d laid down certain rules or He didn't. Being upset at Him doesn't give you license to do as you wish. <BR/><BR/>Second, modern orthodoxy does not allow touching women. Some modern orthodox Jews do, indeed, touch, but modern orthodoxy as a philosophy does not condone the behavior.<BR/><BR/>Third, the idea of being <BR/>"authentic" is, frankly, hogwash. If people were truly authentic, most of them would be killing each other (as "Lord of the Flies," "Heart of Darkness," and other books and thinkers posit). Manners, clothing, etc. are all inauthentic. <BR/><BR/>One of the main themes of Judaism is taking the "authentic" and uplifting and ennobling it. Judaism does not deny any natural impulses; it merely channels and restricts them, thereby taking "authentic," animalistic desires and converting them into holy and noble drives.<BR/><BR/>I am not without my own desires and temptations, and to be honest, I've done pretty poory lately (in my own estimation, anyway). However, I cannot believe that living "authentcally" is a better or more fulfilling life (besides for the fact that, as a believing Jew, I have no choice). For you, being authentic might mean touching women. For others, it means Woodstock, and for others it means murder. <BR/><BR/>Going back to my first point, ideally, one shouldn't be religious for ulterior motives (like understanding clouds or raising a nice family). The basis for religion is an historical occurence three thousand years ago. If G-d did not speak at that time then anything goes. But if He did, one has to follow the rules lock, stock, and barrel and rely on Him that He knows best. (And according to many people, living such a life is, ultimately, more fulfilling.)<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry if I rambled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10890885.post-1120746678086333632005-07-07T10:31:00.000-04:002005-07-07T10:31:00.000-04:00I want to reassure you and congratulate you on you...I want to reassure you and congratulate you on your liberation. I also want to express understanding on your feelings of your personal relationship with God, and how you know that you are betraying your faith, whether anyone else does. I hesitate to say anything, because I'm aware that a part of you is writing this in angst and frustration. I still feel "bad" if I do something that I know my religion recites is wrong (dancing, smoking, drinking, premarital sex...) So, you'd probably ask what is wrong with me to do some of those things anyway? I cannot answer it. That is why I don't know what to say in order for you to not think of me as a hypocrite. I value your self worth and the worthiness of your future wife. 5 years is a long time, and hopefully without looking too far ahead, you can continue this. I imagine it is hard, especially since you hinted towards the fact that you weren't always ...... how do I politely put this....hmmmm....errr.....quite so restricted in your liberty with women? Is that fair? <BR/><BR/>Aside from religious veiwpoint, I think that dating women would be a good idea. I don't know about clubbing; to this day I am still weary of such places and the type of people that populate them, but if this would make you feel good, then I think do it. I don't see the harm in fact if you were to casually date, meaning set up your own shiddich's in effect. You don't need to take these people to bed with you, and many women are happy enough to not be touched for the first while. If you could over the course of a few dates with someone you are interested in portray your greatness *we know you are* and your religion, you just might win someone over and not have to compromise your faith so much. <BR/><BR/>I don't know what I am saying, hopefuly I've given you something to think about. I would love to see you happy. I think you deserve some kind of female companionship, platonic or otherwise. I hear it in your words.Rowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446435491941733971noreply@blogger.com